If you’re going to define your movement as anti-genocidal you should really have a firm grasp on what genocide is and who is committing it:
Article II of the Convention defines genocide as:
… any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Hamas, what Israel has been clear they intend to destroy, is not a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. However, Jews/Israel/Israelis, what Hamas has been clear they intend to destroy, are. Therefore, legally Oct 7 was an act of genocide, and Israel’s war on Hamas is not. Such a designation has nothing to do with body count.
I support Israel because I oppose the genocidal. Binding their hands and preventing them from retaliating in self-defense only serves to support genocidal Hamas by keeping them in power.
Anytime somebody starts quibbling over whether something is technically genocide, they’re an immoral person and nothing they say is of any worth to the human species. I didn’t get past the first sentence you wrote before I clicked away.
“Look at me displacing almost 2 million people and bombing their homes and cities whole to the ground one by one. It’s not a genocide though, because I haven’t explicitely claimed that my goal is to commit a genocide.”
The thing is, Israel’s leaders have expressed genocidal intent over and over again. Just read South Africa’s allegations at the ICJ. They have the receipts.
Absolutely, there were millions of civilian casualties in WWII. The difference here is that there have been, according to Israel, only 273 soldiers killed in ground operation combat vs the 13,000 civilians killed on Gaza’s side. (According to the new, lower estimates.) This is not so much a war as a one-sided beatdown.
No, I’m saying that if a nation has such a huge advantage they also have more responsibility to select targets carefully so as to not kill noncombatants.
A nation taking lots of casualties has the same responsibilities as one taking few casualties.
That said, the proportion of civilian casualties to the total population of Gaza is comparable to that of Chechnya and less than in Vietnam, North Korea or the East Front of WW2. Unfortunately, civilian casualties are an inevitable part of modern war.
All wars are targeted at a specific group of people.
Yes, my wording was vague. But say you went to war with Canada, a diverse nation. It would feel different if you broadly targeted all Canadians rather than specifically indigenous Canadians, or black Canadians, for example.
And putting this on the table now: I am Canadian and I recognise my country was built upon its own genocide.
Edit: Someone else feel free to chime in, I still don’t feel I am conveying this well
Ok, then why would a hypothetical US invasion of Canada (which today, unlike in 1812, would be imbalanced in favor of the US) be better than an Israeli invasion of Gaza?
It’s almost as if words mean things and have specific definitions, especially legal ones. Feel free to criticize such behaviors with different accurate words for things you don’t like.
On the other hand, genocide was committed in October, when Hamas brutally attacked the Jewish state, murdering an estimated 1,200 people, Schiff said.
…and the article lost credibility. If what Israel is doing isn’t genocide, then what Hamas did can’t be genocide.
Looked up the people quoted in the article. Rabbi Danny Schiff is an ethics lawyer from Pittsburgh, not a genocide scholar. Avi Ben-Hur, who is more qualified to speak on this said:
“We have a monster on our doorstep,” he said. “We were caught asleep. We had horrible things done to us. It’s not a question of payback. We have to retrieve our safety and security so people can go back to their homes and live their lives like normal people. We have to degrade the monster’s offensive capabilities so this can’t happen again.” source.
Calling them “monsters,” and dehumanizing people, doesn’t gain my trust.
Oct 7 literally is an act of genocide, see my post above. You’re saying they don’t have credibility because you don’t understand what genocide is. This designation has nothing to do with body count.
Even if the definition of “genocide” is ceded. The crimes against humanity outlined in the ICJ against Israel and the ongoing humanitarian crisis created by the ongoing conflict is damning.
If we wait to call it a “genocide” after it’s already been committed, then the world will have failed Palestine.
Curious how you moved the goal posts from “not openly stating one’s intent” which was used as justification to claim what Israel is doing is not a Genocide to “not having intent” which is what defines the difference between murder and manslaught.
People are convicted of murder all the time when they didn’t openly said their intention was murder if it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that it was their intention.
So the previous poster’s point holds very well and you just further dug the grave on yours.
Take your hasbara bullshit somewhere else. According to that same organization you took your definition from, an occupying nation like Israel can not claim self defense when attacked
New York (20 October 2022) – There are reasonable grounds to conclude that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory is now unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli Government’s de-facto annexation policies, according to the first report to the General Assembly issued today by the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel.
Navi Pillay (South Africa), serves as chair, Miloon Kothari (India) and Chris Sidoti (Australia) serve as members of the commission
Many more opposed their methods and conclusions:
June 2023, United States and Israel joined 25 countries in condemning the open-ended nature of the UN investigation and “the long-standing disproportionate attention given to Israel in the council.”
Hmm, I wonder why they’re paying so much attention to Israel. Could it be the apartheid or the human rights violations or flauting of international law?
You support Israel because you oppose the genocidal.This is one of the most batshit insane things i have read on this site,you really cannot have typed that with a straight face.
If you’re going to define your movement as anti-genocidal you should really have a firm grasp on what genocide is and who is committing it:
Hamas, what Israel has been clear they intend to destroy, is not a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. However, Jews/Israel/Israelis, what Hamas has been clear they intend to destroy, are. Therefore, legally Oct 7 was an act of genocide, and Israel’s war on Hamas is not. Such a designation has nothing to do with body count.
I support Israel because I oppose the genocidal. Binding their hands and preventing them from retaliating in self-defense only serves to support genocidal Hamas by keeping them in power.
Anytime somebody starts quibbling over whether something is technically genocide, they’re an immoral person and nothing they say is of any worth to the human species. I didn’t get past the first sentence you wrote before I clicked away.
“Look at me displacing almost 2 million people and bombing their homes and cities whole to the ground one by one. It’s not a genocide though, because I haven’t explicitely claimed that my goal is to commit a genocide.”
The thing is, Israel’s leaders have expressed genocidal intent over and over again. Just read South Africa’s allegations at the ICJ. They have the receipts.
If so then the wars in Korea, Vietnam, and Chechnya were all genocides.
When entire civilian populations are bombed or starved, then yes. The US is not free of war crimes. They’re merely immune from the consequences.
Not just the US. Chechnya was invaded by Russia. German civilians were bombed by the UK and USSR.
In fact, it’s hard to find a large-scale modern war that didn’t cause thousands of civilian casualties.
Absolutely, there were millions of civilian casualties in WWII. The difference here is that there have been, according to Israel, only 273 soldiers killed in ground operation combat vs the 13,000 civilians killed on Gaza’s side. (According to the new, lower estimates.) This is not so much a war as a one-sided beatdown.
Are you really suggesting that every asymmetrical war that is conducted successfully is genocide? O.o
No, I’m saying that if a nation has such a huge advantage they also have more responsibility to select targets carefully so as to not kill noncombatants.
A nation taking lots of casualties has the same responsibilities as one taking few casualties.
That said, the proportion of civilian casualties to the total population of Gaza is comparable to that of Chechnya and less than in Vietnam, North Korea or the East Front of WW2. Unfortunately, civilian casualties are an inevitable part of modern war.
I mean, there isn’t any obligation in war to make sure casualties are evenly distributed among both sides.
Normally, a lopsided war ends only when the losing side surrenders.
Now you’re getting it
“Genocide” is just another word for “war”?
When it’s targeted at a specific group of people and there’s such a dramatic power imbalance, yes. Whether modern definitions agree or not.
All wars are targeted at a specific group of people.
So if your definition amounts to a highly favorable balance of power, then all countries at war would aspire to make it a “genocide”.
Yes, my wording was vague. But say you went to war with Canada, a diverse nation. It would feel different if you broadly targeted all Canadians rather than specifically indigenous Canadians, or black Canadians, for example.
And putting this on the table now: I am Canadian and I recognise my country was built upon its own genocide.
Edit: Someone else feel free to chime in, I still don’t feel I am conveying this well
Ok, then why would a hypothetical US invasion of Canada (which today, unlike in 1812, would be imbalanced in favor of the US) be better than an Israeli invasion of Gaza?
It’s almost as if words mean things and have specific definitions, especially legal ones. Feel free to criticize such behaviors with different accurate words for things you don’t like.
…and the article lost credibility. If what Israel is doing isn’t genocide, then what Hamas did can’t be genocide.
Looked up the people quoted in the article. Rabbi Danny Schiff is an ethics lawyer from Pittsburgh, not a genocide scholar. Avi Ben-Hur, who is more qualified to speak on this said:
Calling them “monsters,” and dehumanizing people, doesn’t gain my trust.
Oct 7 literally is an act of genocide, see my post above. You’re saying they don’t have credibility because you don’t understand what genocide is. This designation has nothing to do with body count.
Even if the definition of “genocide” is ceded. The crimes against humanity outlined in the ICJ against Israel and the ongoing humanitarian crisis created by the ongoing conflict is damning.
If we wait to call it a “genocide” after it’s already been committed, then the world will have failed Palestine.
If someone punches you to death, declaring they weren’t trying to kill you doesn’t make them any less guilty of murder.
Actually, in the US it could. Intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter.
Curious how you moved the goal posts from “not openly stating one’s intent” which was used as justification to claim what Israel is doing is not a Genocide to “not having intent” which is what defines the difference between murder and manslaught.
People are convicted of murder all the time when they didn’t openly said their intention was murder if it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that it was their intention.
So the previous poster’s point holds very well and you just further dug the grave on yours.
Take your hasbara bullshit somewhere else. According to that same organization you took your definition from, an occupying nation like Israel can not claim self defense when attacked
Sorry to invade your echo chamber with dissent. It must pain you to be reminded that not everyone agrees with you, that must be so hard for you.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. A blockade is not an occupation.
Say what?
Oh, I forgor, the United Nations is Hamas now.
Oh no don’t forgor. They’re not Hamas but they do exhibit significant anti-Israel bias.
Three countries were on said commission of inquiry:
Many more opposed their methods and conclusions:
But that’s the UN for you, lots of scrutiny and condemnation of Israel, not a peep when Jews are ethnically cleansed from neighboring countries.
Now the whole world is Hamas? Is reality Hamas too?
Hmm, I wonder why they’re paying so much attention to Israel. Could it be the apartheid or the human rights violations or flauting of international law?
You support Israel because you oppose the genocidal.This is one of the most batshit insane things i have read on this site,you really cannot have typed that with a straight face.
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