You’re acting like this was his standard salary. It wasn’t.
His contact, approved by shareholders at the time, basically offered him a King’s ransom for an impossible miracle, defined with metrics like sales and stock price.
Elon delivered the miracle. Love him or hate him, the conditions were met.
I never once said it was his standard salary nor did I allude to such.
Elon did nothing. The workers at Tesla did everything. Such a sad state of the world when people like him are so revered for one thing — having money. And it’s even sadder that people equate that to having intelligence or actually producing anything. The reason the shareholders approved this is because they see him as a way for themselves to make more money. It’s pure greed all around.
So I reiterate just in case it was confusing the first time around — Insane. No one person should have, or deserve, 56 billion dollars. And especially this piece of shit.
If you really think he did nothing at all, then you have absolutely no understanding of how business works or how Tesla works. It’s like saying the ship doesn’t need a captain because the captain doesn’t personally operate or clean a part of the ship.
You are right that it is greed. But that is the very point. That is how our economy works. That is how our government works too. The whole point of checks and balances in the US Constitution is that people are expected to be greedy. Rather than rely on a king to be altruistic, it is expected that people at every level will be greedy so their greed is balanced against the greed of others.
Same thing is true with our economy, the whole point of capitalist economy is it harnesses the greed of everybody to move things forward.
Investors provide capital because they are greedy and want a return on their investment. Their greed is harnessed and put to work, This benefits all by providing a rich market of investment capital for businesses to use. And because they are greedy, because those investors have partial ownership of the company, they affect its direction.
It’s not always perfect. Lately far too many business decisions are made based solely on next quarter results at the cost of long-term success, and that is driven by short-term investors. Boeing is a perfect example of that.
But to write the whole system off and say it’s all greed and it all sucks and it’s all stupid reflects a fundamental lack of understanding how the economy works.
If you want an economy without greed, the best you’re probably going to find is communism. That’s been tried, it doesn’t usually work so well because without a greed incentive pushing things forward, there isn’t incentive to innovate or to work at maximum efficiency.
And as for Elon’s windfall, I think it’s fair to say nobody needs $56 billion. I definitely support a much higher tax rate for the extreme upper income brackets. If you are making more than 50 or 100 million a year income above that should be taxed at a pretty high rate. I am extremely against the extreme income inequality that has happened in this country. When the CEO is making hundreds of millions and the guy mopping the floor relies on government assistance to afford food, something is seriously fucked up.
But I think the solution to that is to bring up the lower guy, raise the minimum wage by a fairly significant amount. I think in most places minimum wage should be ¢15 or $20 an hour.
And I also favor a prohibition that if any of the companies employees rely on government assistance the company loses all tax breaks and government benefits.
No I understand economy just fine. I understand that I’m spending double (or more) on groceries than what I spent a mere five years ago which vastly exceeds inflation. I understand that businesses don’t actually need a captain as you describe, but that is a concept difficult for most to realize. And I also understand that there exists multiple businesses that have such captains that actually do hard work and do provide more than just dividends and interest to a shareholder.
Please don’t take what I said as a suggestion that what we have right now is great. Like anything, capitalism requires checks and balances. In my opinion the heyday of modern capitalism was the mid to late 1900s, because industry was operating at full efficiency but regulation also insured that the average person was able to benefit from that. All three factors of production, land labor and capital, all had a seat at the table.
We have moved a good distance away from that. Capital dominates the conversation, land has made some advances in the form of environmental protection, but labor still takes a distant back seat.
And so you get ridiculous situations like a company gets hundreds of millions in tax breaks and subsidies while the CEO gets paid hundreds of millions and the guy who mops the floor is on food stamps.
I don’t see this as good capitalism. Labor needs a bigger seat at the table. If a business cannot afford to survive without paying ALL their workers a living wage that allows upward mobility, that business does not deserve to survive. As I see it, that is part of the very base of capitalism.
That said, your suggestion that businesses don’t need a leader is a ridiculous socialist/communist fantasy that doesn’t actually work in reality.
Take an established business like McDonald’s. From where you sit it probably looks like it doesn’t need a leader, it just keeps going on its own. But who decides how much the burgers cost? Who decides when to introduce new menu items? Who decides what the promotions will be? Who decides what market segments will they focus on? Who decides whether their next new product will be a salad or a triple cheeseburger?
And if you’re going to say middle managers can make these decisions, who decides who those middle managers are?
For what it’s worth, I’m a big fan of employee owned corporations. That doesn’t always work in every segment, but I wish there were a lot more of them. But even an employee own corporation has a CEO, the CEO is just selected by the employees.
As for Elon, your suggestion that he has done nothing shows that you are uninformed. The reason he is not listed as an original founder of Tesla is because of the handful of people who founded it, one already had a business registered and it was cheaper for everybody to buy into that than pay to have it dissolved and pay again to register a new business.
I have actually been following them very closely more or less since they started, so I know this better than most.
In the early days Tesla was headed by a guy named Martin Eberhard and Elon was just an investor. Eberhard insisted on a design with a two-speed gearbox. This is extremely difficult in an electric car because of the high amounts of torque and extremely high RPMs involved. They went through a couple different versions of this, trying to get one that would last the life of a car, and burned a year or so trying to make it work. If you dig through the archives, you’ll find several news articles of journalists who got to drive the original Roadster, but it was locked in second gear because the shifting didn’t work.
Eventually, Elon realized this wasn’t going to work so him and the other investors pushed Eberhard out. There was no love lost, Eberhard fought back, eventually they came to a settlement and Elon became CEO.
Please understand I’m not saying this because I like Elon, I’m saying it because I was literally reading the blogs of both sides as it happened.
The two-speed gearbox went right in the trash, they went to the one speed reduction gear Tesla uses today, and upsized the motor to give better acceleration. Elon was right about that decision, and he was the one who made that decision, all EVs today use that design.
As for SpaceX, Elon basically started that from the ground up. As I recall the guy who designed the Merlin engine was his first hire.
I personally know people who worked for SpaceX and worked directly with Elon. Everyone I’ve talked to says the same thing- Elon is kind of an asshole to his employees, he has absolutely no sense of work-life balance and he wants employees who are 120% committed to the cause and will work late nights and weekends without complaint, he is opinionated and stubborn but in the end he’s right more often than not, but however hard he pushes his people, he pushes himself even harder. Most people don’t last very long in that environment, they put in a handful of years and when their stock options vest they quit, or if they don’t have equity they work until they have a family and can’t put in 60 hour weeks anymore then they quit.
So you want to say Elon is an asshole, you want to say he treats his employees badly, you want to say he doesn’t create a positive environment at his company’s, I will probably agree with all of these things.
But you say he doesn’t do anything of value, that is just uninformed.
You seem quite passionate about this and I’ve moved on. But yes, Musk is a parasite on this world because he takes and literally does nothing to give back.
Again, it’s cool you think I’m misinformed. I’m not, but no worries. Have a good one!
I know quite enough about Musk. I also know myself and calling me ignorant is rather presumptuous. But I get the sense that you like to attempt to correct others a lot, especially those you think are less learned when we simply don’t require it because we’re not actually wrong or misinformed. What you see as ignorance is simply that one can be both learned, and also hold a strong opinion about someone based on evidence of their behavior and their actions or inactions.
Just because you don’t agree with such an opinion does not mean we somehow are less educated about a subject.
It really is okay. You can continue on thinking I’m dumb :)
This will be my last reply to you. I appreciate your passion.
Every bit of that is completely insane whether accurate or not. Musk is 100% fraud and gas no accomplished anything. All he did was put up money and name himself founder, and all this dies is further prove that stocks are a complete fucking sham amd have nothing at all to do with company performance.
You’re acting like this was his standard salary. It wasn’t. His contact, approved by shareholders at the time, basically offered him a King’s ransom for an impossible miracle, defined with metrics like sales and stock price. Elon delivered the miracle. Love him or hate him, the conditions were met.
I never once said it was his standard salary nor did I allude to such.
Elon did nothing. The workers at Tesla did everything. Such a sad state of the world when people like him are so revered for one thing — having money. And it’s even sadder that people equate that to having intelligence or actually producing anything. The reason the shareholders approved this is because they see him as a way for themselves to make more money. It’s pure greed all around.
So I reiterate just in case it was confusing the first time around — Insane. No one person should have, or deserve, 56 billion dollars. And especially this piece of shit.
This is exactly what capitalism is: someone who’s idle makes more money than the actual workers. Fuck capitalism!!!
If you really think he did nothing at all, then you have absolutely no understanding of how business works or how Tesla works. It’s like saying the ship doesn’t need a captain because the captain doesn’t personally operate or clean a part of the ship.
You are right that it is greed. But that is the very point. That is how our economy works. That is how our government works too. The whole point of checks and balances in the US Constitution is that people are expected to be greedy. Rather than rely on a king to be altruistic, it is expected that people at every level will be greedy so their greed is balanced against the greed of others. Same thing is true with our economy, the whole point of capitalist economy is it harnesses the greed of everybody to move things forward. Investors provide capital because they are greedy and want a return on their investment. Their greed is harnessed and put to work, This benefits all by providing a rich market of investment capital for businesses to use. And because they are greedy, because those investors have partial ownership of the company, they affect its direction.
It’s not always perfect. Lately far too many business decisions are made based solely on next quarter results at the cost of long-term success, and that is driven by short-term investors. Boeing is a perfect example of that.
But to write the whole system off and say it’s all greed and it all sucks and it’s all stupid reflects a fundamental lack of understanding how the economy works.
If you want an economy without greed, the best you’re probably going to find is communism. That’s been tried, it doesn’t usually work so well because without a greed incentive pushing things forward, there isn’t incentive to innovate or to work at maximum efficiency.
And as for Elon’s windfall, I think it’s fair to say nobody needs $56 billion. I definitely support a much higher tax rate for the extreme upper income brackets. If you are making more than 50 or 100 million a year income above that should be taxed at a pretty high rate. I am extremely against the extreme income inequality that has happened in this country. When the CEO is making hundreds of millions and the guy mopping the floor relies on government assistance to afford food, something is seriously fucked up. But I think the solution to that is to bring up the lower guy, raise the minimum wage by a fairly significant amount. I think in most places minimum wage should be ¢15 or $20 an hour. And I also favor a prohibition that if any of the companies employees rely on government assistance the company loses all tax breaks and government benefits.
No I understand economy just fine. I understand that I’m spending double (or more) on groceries than what I spent a mere five years ago which vastly exceeds inflation. I understand that businesses don’t actually need a captain as you describe, but that is a concept difficult for most to realize. And I also understand that there exists multiple businesses that have such captains that actually do hard work and do provide more than just dividends and interest to a shareholder.
Musk is a parasite on the world.
And it’s okay if you don’t like what I say. :)
Please don’t take what I said as a suggestion that what we have right now is great. Like anything, capitalism requires checks and balances. In my opinion the heyday of modern capitalism was the mid to late 1900s, because industry was operating at full efficiency but regulation also insured that the average person was able to benefit from that. All three factors of production, land labor and capital, all had a seat at the table.
We have moved a good distance away from that. Capital dominates the conversation, land has made some advances in the form of environmental protection, but labor still takes a distant back seat. And so you get ridiculous situations like a company gets hundreds of millions in tax breaks and subsidies while the CEO gets paid hundreds of millions and the guy who mops the floor is on food stamps. I don’t see this as good capitalism. Labor needs a bigger seat at the table. If a business cannot afford to survive without paying ALL their workers a living wage that allows upward mobility, that business does not deserve to survive. As I see it, that is part of the very base of capitalism.
That said, your suggestion that businesses don’t need a leader is a ridiculous socialist/communist fantasy that doesn’t actually work in reality. Take an established business like McDonald’s. From where you sit it probably looks like it doesn’t need a leader, it just keeps going on its own. But who decides how much the burgers cost? Who decides when to introduce new menu items? Who decides what the promotions will be? Who decides what market segments will they focus on? Who decides whether their next new product will be a salad or a triple cheeseburger? And if you’re going to say middle managers can make these decisions, who decides who those middle managers are?
For what it’s worth, I’m a big fan of employee owned corporations. That doesn’t always work in every segment, but I wish there were a lot more of them. But even an employee own corporation has a CEO, the CEO is just selected by the employees.
As for Elon, your suggestion that he has done nothing shows that you are uninformed. The reason he is not listed as an original founder of Tesla is because of the handful of people who founded it, one already had a business registered and it was cheaper for everybody to buy into that than pay to have it dissolved and pay again to register a new business. I have actually been following them very closely more or less since they started, so I know this better than most. In the early days Tesla was headed by a guy named Martin Eberhard and Elon was just an investor. Eberhard insisted on a design with a two-speed gearbox. This is extremely difficult in an electric car because of the high amounts of torque and extremely high RPMs involved. They went through a couple different versions of this, trying to get one that would last the life of a car, and burned a year or so trying to make it work. If you dig through the archives, you’ll find several news articles of journalists who got to drive the original Roadster, but it was locked in second gear because the shifting didn’t work. Eventually, Elon realized this wasn’t going to work so him and the other investors pushed Eberhard out. There was no love lost, Eberhard fought back, eventually they came to a settlement and Elon became CEO. Please understand I’m not saying this because I like Elon, I’m saying it because I was literally reading the blogs of both sides as it happened. The two-speed gearbox went right in the trash, they went to the one speed reduction gear Tesla uses today, and upsized the motor to give better acceleration. Elon was right about that decision, and he was the one who made that decision, all EVs today use that design.
As for SpaceX, Elon basically started that from the ground up. As I recall the guy who designed the Merlin engine was his first hire. I personally know people who worked for SpaceX and worked directly with Elon. Everyone I’ve talked to says the same thing- Elon is kind of an asshole to his employees, he has absolutely no sense of work-life balance and he wants employees who are 120% committed to the cause and will work late nights and weekends without complaint, he is opinionated and stubborn but in the end he’s right more often than not, but however hard he pushes his people, he pushes himself even harder. Most people don’t last very long in that environment, they put in a handful of years and when their stock options vest they quit, or if they don’t have equity they work until they have a family and can’t put in 60 hour weeks anymore then they quit.
So you want to say Elon is an asshole, you want to say he treats his employees badly, you want to say he doesn’t create a positive environment at his company’s, I will probably agree with all of these things. But you say he doesn’t do anything of value, that is just uninformed.
You seem quite passionate about this and I’ve moved on. But yes, Musk is a parasite on this world because he takes and literally does nothing to give back.
Again, it’s cool you think I’m misinformed. I’m not, but no worries. Have a good one!
There is no one so ignorant, as someone who is quite sure they know all they need to.
I would encourage you to study the writings of your enemies as well as your friends. I have found it most useful.
Have a good one!
I know quite enough about Musk. I also know myself and calling me ignorant is rather presumptuous. But I get the sense that you like to attempt to correct others a lot, especially those you think are less learned when we simply don’t require it because we’re not actually wrong or misinformed. What you see as ignorance is simply that one can be both learned, and also hold a strong opinion about someone based on evidence of their behavior and their actions or inactions.
Just because you don’t agree with such an opinion does not mean we somehow are less educated about a subject.
It really is okay. You can continue on thinking I’m dumb :)
This will be my last reply to you. I appreciate your passion.
Every bit of that is completely insane whether accurate or not. Musk is 100% fraud and gas no accomplished anything. All he did was put up money and name himself founder, and all this dies is further prove that stocks are a complete fucking sham amd have nothing at all to do with company performance.
Please see my reply to ulkesh here