The claim “Division and fractions are semantically distinct” implies that they are provably distinct functions, we can use the usual set-theoretic definition of those. Distinctness of functions implies the presence of pair n, m, elements of an appropriate set, say, the natural numbers without zero for convenience, such that (excuse my Haskell) div n m /= fract n m, where /= is the appropriate inequality of the result set (the rational numbers, in this example, which happens to be decidable which is also convenient).
Can you give me such a pair of numbers? We can start to enumerate the problem. Does div11 /= fract 11 hold? No, the results are equal, both are 1. How about div12 /= fract 12? Neither, the results are both the same rational number. I leave exploring the rest of the possibilities as an exercise and apologise for the smugness.
You need to take it seriously for longer than that.
implies that they are provably distinct functions
No, I’m explicitly stating they are.
we can use the usual set-theoretic definition
This is literally Year 7 Maths - I don’t know why some people want to resort to set theory.
Can you give me such a pair of numbers?
But that’s the problem with your example - you only tried it with 2 numbers. Now throw in another division, like in that other Year 7 topic, dividing by fractions.
1÷1÷2=½ (must be done left to right)
1÷½=2
In other words 1÷½=1÷(1÷2) but not 1÷1÷2. i.e. ½=(1÷2) not 1÷2. Terms are separated by operators (division in this case) and joined by grouping symbols (brackets, fraction bar), and you can’t remove brackets unless there is only 1 term left inside, so if you have (1÷2), you can’t remove the brackets yet if there’s still some of the expression it’s in left to be solved (or if it’s the last set of brackets left to be solved, then you could change it to ½, because ½=(1÷2)).
Therefore, as I said, division and fractions aren’t the same thing.
I’m not asking you to explain how division isn’t associative, I’m asking you to find an n, m such that ⁿ⁄ₘ is not equal to n ÷ m.
To compare two functions you have to compare them one to one, you have to compare ⁄ to ÷, not two invocation of one to three invocation of the others or whatever.
EDIT: OMG you’re on programming.dev. A programmer should understand the difference between syntax and semantics. This vs. this. Mathematicians tend to call syntax “notation” but it’s the same difference.
Another approach: If frac and div are different functions, then multiplication would have two different inverses. How could that be?
I’m not asking you to explain how division isn’t associative
I was explaining why we have the rule of Terms (which you’ve not managed to find a problem with).
I’m asking you to find an n, m such that ⁿ⁄ₘ is not equal to n ÷ m
I already pointed out that’s irrelevant - it doesn’t involve a division followed by a factorised term. You’re asking me to defend something which I never even said, nor is relevant to the problem. i.e. a strawman designed to deflect.
Stop being confidently incorrect
You haven’t shown that anything I’ve said is incorrect. If you wanna get back on topic, then come back to showing how 1÷½=1÷(1÷2) but not 1÷1÷2 is, according to you, incorrect (given you claimed division and fractions are the same thing)
EDIT: OMG you’re on programming.dev.
Yeah, welcome to why I’m trying to get programmers to learn the rules of Maths
You haven’t shown that anything I’ve said is incorrect. If you wanna get back on topic, then come back to showing how 1÷½=1÷(1÷2) but not 1÷1÷2 is, according to you, incorrect (given you claimed division and fractions are the same thing)
Your statement there is correct. It is also a statement about syntax, not semantics. Divisions and fractions are distinct in syntax, but they still both are the same functions, they both are the inverse of multiplication.
Yeah, welcome to why I’m trying to get programmers to learn the rules of Maths
PEMDAS is not a rule of maths. It’s a bunch of bad American maths pedagogy. Is, in your opinion, “show your work” a rule of maths? Or is it pedagogy?
Which I did with a concrete example, which you have since ignored.
I did not say “opposite”. I said “inverse”
The inverse of div is to multiply. The inverse of frac is to invert the fraction - happy now?
Divisions and fractions are distinct in syntax, but they still both are the same functions
No, they’re not. Division is a binary operator, a fraction is a single term.
they both are the inverse of multiplication
Multiplication is also a binary operator, and division is the opposite of it (in the same way that plus and minus are unary operators which are the opposite of each other). A fraction isn’t an operator at all - it’s a single term. There is no “opposite” to a single term (except maybe another single term which is the opposite of it. e.g. the inverse fraction).
There is, especially if you’re dividing by a fraction! Division and fractions aren’t the same thing.
Not if it actually is a division and not a fraction. There’s no problem with having multiple divisions in a single expression.
Semantically, yes they are. Syntactically they’re different.
No, they’re not. Terms are separated by operators (division) and joined by grouping operators (fraction bar).
That’s syntax.
…let me take this seriously for a second.
The claim “Division and fractions are semantically distinct” implies that they are provably distinct functions, we can use the usual set-theoretic definition of those. Distinctness of functions implies the presence of pair
n, m, elements of an appropriate set, say, the natural numbers without zero for convenience, such that (excuse my Haskell)div n m /= fract n m, where/=is the appropriate inequality of the result set (the rational numbers, in this example, which happens to be decidable which is also convenient).Can you give me such a pair of numbers? We can start to enumerate the problem. Does
div 1 1 /= fract 1 1hold? No, the results are equal, both are1. How aboutdiv 1 2 /= fract 1 2? Neither, the results are both the same rational number. I leave exploring the rest of the possibilities as an exercise and apologise for the smugness.You need to take it seriously for longer than that.
No, I’m explicitly stating they are.
This is literally Year 7 Maths - I don’t know why some people want to resort to set theory.
But that’s the problem with your example - you only tried it with 2 numbers. Now throw in another division, like in that other Year 7 topic, dividing by fractions.
1÷1÷2=½ (must be done left to right)
1÷½=2
In other words 1÷½=1÷(1÷2) but not 1÷1÷2. i.e. ½=(1÷2) not 1÷2. Terms are separated by operators (division in this case) and joined by grouping symbols (brackets, fraction bar), and you can’t remove brackets unless there is only 1 term left inside, so if you have (1÷2), you can’t remove the brackets yet if there’s still some of the expression it’s in left to be solved (or if it’s the last set of brackets left to be solved, then you could change it to ½, because ½=(1÷2)).
Therefore, as I said, division and fractions aren’t the same thing.
Apology accepted.
I’m not asking you to explain how division isn’t associative, I’m asking you to find an n, m such that ⁿ⁄ₘ is not equal to n ÷ m.
To compare two functions you have to compare them one to one, you have to compare ⁄ to ÷, not two invocation of one to three invocation of the others or whatever.
Also I’ll leave you with this. Stop being confidently incorrect, it’s a bad habit.
EDIT: OMG you’re on programming.dev. A programmer should understand the difference between syntax and semantics. This vs. this. Mathematicians tend to call syntax “notation” but it’s the same difference.
Another approach: If
fracanddivare different functions, then multiplication would have two different inverses. How could that be?The opposite of div is to multiply. The opposite of frac is to invert the fraction.
I was explaining why we have the rule of Terms (which you’ve not managed to find a problem with).
I already pointed out that’s irrelevant - it doesn’t involve a division followed by a factorised term. You’re asking me to defend something which I never even said, nor is relevant to the problem. i.e. a strawman designed to deflect.
You haven’t shown that anything I’ve said is incorrect. If you wanna get back on topic, then come back to showing how 1÷½=1÷(1÷2) but not 1÷1÷2 is, according to you, incorrect (given you claimed division and fractions are the same thing)
Yeah, welcome to why I’m trying to get programmers to learn the rules of Maths
I said:
You replied:
Thus, you made a claim about semantics. One which I then went on and challenged you to prove, which you tried to do with a statement about syntax.
I did not say “opposite”. I said “inverse”. That term has a rather precise meaning.
Your statement there is correct. It is also a statement about syntax, not semantics. Divisions and fractions are distinct in syntax, but they still both are the same functions, they both are the inverse of multiplication.
PEMDAS is not a rule of maths. It’s a bunch of bad American maths pedagogy. Is, in your opinion, “show your work” a rule of maths? Or is it pedagogy?
And told you what it was.
Which I did with a concrete example, which you have since ignored.
The inverse of div is to multiply. The inverse of frac is to invert the fraction - happy now?
No, they’re not. Division is a binary operator, a fraction is a single term.
Multiplication is also a binary operator, and division is the opposite of it (in the same way that plus and minus are unary operators which are the opposite of each other). A fraction isn’t an operator at all - it’s a single term. There is no “opposite” to a single term (except maybe another single term which is the opposite of it. e.g. the inverse fraction).
No, it’s a mnemonic to remind people of the actual rules.