It’s the definitions currently used by Americans. Conservatives and the GOP are Right Wing, and they directly oppose progress and changes in all of their policy stances, in some cases even wanting to dismantle the laws already implemented and return to a previous era.
Thats fair sorry, I was thinking it meant something different in another culture but I was probably confusing it with Liberals or some other political identification.
If I say I’m being persecuted as a Scotsman and someone points out I have never been to Scotland and have no Scottish heritage, that’s not a “no true Scotsman” fallacy because I don’t meet the definition of Scotsman no matter how much I claim to be one.
How did you somehow misunderstand my comment so badly? Okay, I edited it for clarity.
You are the one who, in this instance, is trying to insist orange juice is in fact coke. You are the one claiming no true scotsman.
Even in your attempt to twist it, you still include an explanation of why “no true scotsman” just doesn’t apply here. What you are calling communism does not meet any definition of communism, just as no orange juice meets the definition of coke.
The Bolshevik Party which took control in 1927 onwards were the party of centralized disciplined government structure, so compared to the Menshevik party that wanted to structure Russia after a Western Social Democracy rather than the current path they were on to Dictatorship, The Bolshevik’s would be right wing. I take a very small amount of liberty to call going from a Monarchy to Dictatorship as fairly conservative and transitioning to democracy as Progressive.
Let’s ignore the political opponent massacres of the Great Purge and ideology fueled agricultural disasters of the Great Chinese Famine, and focus on the Holodomor in Ukraine, the Cambodian genocide, the Uyghur genocide in China.
Happened under communist dictatorships that are generally considered to be at the left.
Generally, the left wing is characterized by an emphasis on “ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform and internationalism” while the right wing is characterized by an emphasis on “notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction and nationalism”.
I’m not sure what your comment means, but I’m actually saying the opposite of dictatorship being of a specific political side. I’m highlighting the fact that political extremists will end up killing in the name of their ideology, which ever it is, left, right or whatever other cult.
My comment means a Dictatorship, by definition, isn’t left wing.
I’m highlighting the fact that political extremists will end up killing in the name of their ideology
How do you define extremist? It used to be an extremist view to say women should have the right to vote, or people shouldn’t own slaves. Hell, Democracy used to be an “extremist” view.
So someone willing to kill in the name of an ideology is an extremist, but that’s the easy extreme case. In general in modern democracies, no politician would admit to that, so the definition is rather relative to how far the political positions of a party are from the average of the last governing parties for a specific country.
So someone willing to kill in the name of an ideology is an extremist
So you’re highlighting the fact that extremists will kill people in the name of their ideology, and you define extremists as people who will to kill for their ideology. Sounds pretty tautological no?
You’re confusing tautology with just writing the same definition in two different orders.
A square has four sides of equal length. Four sides of equal length length make a square. That’s not a tautology.
Dictatorships aren’t progressive. I don’t even consider them communisms, tbh. How can workers own the means to production if one guy or family owns the nation?
Agree with your last sentence but it is the path all the Marxist revolutions have taken. A reason being that proletariat dictatorship is a step to communism in Marx’s ideology. But from history, it seems it just stops at the dictatorship.
So maybe the conclusion is that Marx methodology doesn’t actually lead to a progressive/left country.
There is Kerala, a state in India with 34.6 Million people.
TBF there probably would be more than a few if not for USA intervention, like when they overthrew the Marxist Democratic Socialist Allende of Chile in 1973.
There is also Nepal currently, although they’ve very recently enacted a constitution in 2015 and score lower than the USA according to DemocracyMatrix they still qualify as a “Deficient Democracy” the same as the USA.
There was also San Marino from 1945 to 1957 where the “Rovereta Affair” ended in a coup and the Christian Nationalist party took control of the government. TBF though they probably would have just had a shitty Stalinist communism just like Turkmenistan did.
I realize most people define communism and socialism as republics in which most if not all goods are public, but I personally like to include nations in which a sizeable number of goods and services are state owned or distributed, which would include a great many democratic nations like Germany or the UK (as long as we agree the crown has no real political authority in the UK).
Name one. I think almost everyone here is operating on USA definitions of Right = Conservative and Left = Progressive, btw
That’s not a US definition, that’s how the seats where distributed in the french parliament after the revolution
It’s the definitions currently used by Americans. Conservatives and the GOP are Right Wing, and they directly oppose progress and changes in all of their policy stances, in some cases even wanting to dismantle the laws already implemented and return to a previous era.
Yes and I’m telling you that the same definition is used around the world.
Btw back then the frech conservatives were monarchists that opposed the new democracy itself and wanted to dismantle it
Thats fair sorry, I was thinking it meant something different in another culture but I was probably confusing it with Liberals or some other political identification.
Holodomor, the current Uyghur issue.
Cambodia was more of an omnicide, but it counts
Ah yes, the well known leftist government on 1930s Soviet Russia…
Someday we’ll find a true Scotsman
If I say I’m being persecuted as a Scotsman and someone points out I have never been to Scotland and have no Scottish heritage, that’s not a “no true Scotsman” fallacy because I don’t meet the definition of Scotsman no matter how much I claim to be one.
You: “Hey dude, could you pass me that can of Coke?”
Sane person: “Huh? There’s no coke here. No cans of anything.”
You: “What do you mean? That right there-” points to bottle of orange juice
Sane person: “Wtf? This isn’t a can of coke!”
You: “Pfft, so it doesn’t meet your fake standards. No True Scotsman!!”
Edited to add names for clarity.
More like
“Here’s your coke”
“This is orange juice”
“What are you, an idiot? This is clearly orange juice, why would you think it’s coke? Here’s a coke”
“Still orange juice”
“Well you see, coke is made from sugar and artificial flavors, and orange juice is made from orange. That’s why orange juice isn’t coke.”
Nah you’re right, this isn’t No True Scotsman, just regular gaslighting
How did you somehow misunderstand my comment so badly? Okay, I edited it for clarity.
You are the one who, in this instance, is trying to insist orange juice is in fact coke. You are the one claiming no true scotsman.
Even in your attempt to twist it, you still include an explanation of why “no true scotsman” just doesn’t apply here. What you are calling communism does not meet any definition of communism, just as no orange juice meets the definition of coke.
The Bolshevik Party which took control in 1927 onwards were the party of centralized disciplined government structure, so compared to the Menshevik party that wanted to structure Russia after a Western Social Democracy rather than the current path they were on to Dictatorship, The Bolshevik’s would be right wing. I take a very small amount of liberty to call going from a Monarchy to Dictatorship as fairly conservative and transitioning to democracy as Progressive.
The Uyghur genocide would be the most recent.
I wouldn’t call that leftist, but more authoritarian.
That said, do a subset of leftists have the weirdest obsession for defending it because they somehow view China as leftist? Yes.
They’re not mutually exclusive. To give another example, Cuba is unquestionably leftist but it’s also a dictatorship.
China’s a Communism like North Korea is a Democratic Republic.
Let’s ignore the political opponent massacres of the Great Purge and ideology fueled agricultural disasters of the Great Chinese Famine, and focus on the Holodomor in Ukraine, the Cambodian genocide, the Uyghur genocide in China.
Happened under communist dictatorships that are generally considered to be at the left.
This guy: This dictatorship is on the left.
I’m not sure what your comment means, but I’m actually saying the opposite of dictatorship being of a specific political side. I’m highlighting the fact that political extremists will end up killing in the name of their ideology, which ever it is, left, right or whatever other cult.
My comment means a Dictatorship, by definition, isn’t left wing.
How do you define extremist? It used to be an extremist view to say women should have the right to vote, or people shouldn’t own slaves. Hell, Democracy used to be an “extremist” view.
So someone willing to kill in the name of an ideology is an extremist, but that’s the easy extreme case. In general in modern democracies, no politician would admit to that, so the definition is rather relative to how far the political positions of a party are from the average of the last governing parties for a specific country.
So you’re highlighting the fact that extremists will kill people in the name of their ideology, and you define extremists as people who will to kill for their ideology. Sounds pretty tautological no?
You’re confusing tautology with just writing the same definition in two different orders.
A square has four sides of equal length. Four sides of equal length length make a square. That’s not a tautology.
Okay, so you’re highlighting the fact that a square has four sides of equal length. Seems rather pointless, no?
Dictatorships aren’t progressive. I don’t even consider them communisms, tbh. How can workers own the means to production if one guy or family owns the nation?
Agree with your last sentence but it is the path all the Marxist revolutions have taken. A reason being that proletariat dictatorship is a step to communism in Marx’s ideology. But from history, it seems it just stops at the dictatorship.
So maybe the conclusion is that Marx methodology doesn’t actually lead to a progressive/left country.
There is Kerala, a state in India with 34.6 Million people.
TBF there probably would be more than a few if not for USA intervention, like when they overthrew the Marxist Democratic Socialist Allende of Chile in 1973.
There is also Nepal currently, although they’ve very recently enacted a constitution in 2015 and score lower than the USA according to DemocracyMatrix they still qualify as a “Deficient Democracy” the same as the USA.
There was also San Marino from 1945 to 1957 where the “Rovereta Affair” ended in a coup and the Christian Nationalist party took control of the government. TBF though they probably would have just had a shitty Stalinist communism just like Turkmenistan did.
I realize most people define communism and socialism as republics in which most if not all goods are public, but I personally like to include nations in which a sizeable number of goods and services are state owned or distributed, which would include a great many democratic nations like Germany or the UK (as long as we agree the crown has no real political authority in the UK).