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although it’s a true statement, I think borders should be abolished regardless, and that the more international mixing we have, the better the world we have
Exactly. The problem isn’t the visa, it’s the having a group of people you can just pay less and control more…
honestly, shame on Bernie to use that framing, instead of pushing for more unions, which will actually solve the wage issue making hiring local talent as competitive as foreign without depressing anyone’s wage.
Is this not obvious to everyone?
Hiring someone on this kind of visa puts them under your boot. They can’t ask for much or make waves without risking their whole life being upturned. If a citizen gets fired that sucks, but if you’re on a work visa you might have to leave the country (breaking your lease, leaving your partner, etc). I think you get 60 days. Given how bad the job market is, that’s not very long to find a new job. Also given how ICE is abducting people and sending them to a death camp, people are extra cautious.
It’s similar to how coupling health insurance to employment gives the employer extra power against labor. Are you really going to make a big deal about your boss pressuring you to work unpaid overtime when getting fired means you lose access to your life saving medicine?
For context, every wealthy nation has work visas like this. It is not unique to H1bs. Dubai was essentially built on this framework with the added aspect of confiscating passports.
It can be used well in some cases, especially in attracting a workforce to an underserved area. For example, immigrant doctors and nurses make a up a huge proportion of the hospital workforce throughout the US (upwards of 1 in 3 in some urban areas) but even moreso in rural areas.
The problem is when it’s misused, especially in the tech sector.
As someone who was basically an indentured labourer (not in US), this is 100% true.
But at the same time, it was my opportunity to get out of my country. I traded a couple of years of light slavery in exchange for a potentially higher level of freedom later.
I got lucky, though, and I managed to get a good job later. Not everyone would be lucky. Some of my friends are still working in the company that brought me in (Infosys).
People who get kicked out of the country if they lose their job usually don’t form unions or protest for fair pay or worker rights
A lot of the Tech related H-1Bs go to Consulting firms.
I have nothing negative to say about people on H-1Bs they work very hard and are working the hand they are dealt just like you and me.
The argument that talent can not be found within the US though is completely bogus.
He’s right. It doesn’t mean you hate foreigners to understand why bosses would prefer to hire someone with less rights and who needs less money to raise their family through remittances.
It’s both, really. We could easily get the best and the brightest by offering better pay, but why sacrifice anything when you can have both?
fuck every border that’s what i think
He’s right
Hes completely wrong. https://www.h1bdata.org/
A random example using data from this link:
Apple Inc. employs 4116 H1B holders for “Software Develolment Applications” with an average salary of $136,794
Looking at Glassdoor the average salary for that position (from 6630 salaries in the US) is $215,000 - $330,000
dropdown menus?! explain to me!
I dont know why Bernie has flipped and is now parroting the immigrants stealing jobs meme. We dont have to guess we can easily look at the h1b rates and see they aren’t replacing Americans with low wages. The h1b wages are very high across the different industries and these industries havent had wage drops due to h1b workers coming over.
that is not what sanders is saying
How is saying “replacing good paying american jobs with low wage indentured servants from abroad” not exactly that? I agree with Bernie on the servant part because of the visa restrictions but they’re paid well enough and they’re skilled enough that I dont feel sorry for them as they’ve got plenty of prospects for where to live.
Because the h1b visas are designed to lock in the person by sponsoring the h1b. So the company can basically pay you less than what the job is worth and you can’t say shit about it or they pull your h1b sponsorship and you get ejected from the country. It’s %100 indentured servitude.
Yeah I sort of agree with the lockin part but I wouldnt use the harsh term indentured servitude became theyre coming over with the expectation its a working visa not a permanent visa.
But that wasn’t tbe part i cared about. I care that the stats show the companies are still paying high salaries and the average pay for the non h1b workers is still going up because the demand for skilled workers is still high. Bernie is completely wrong to claim otherwise and he should know better.
We dont have to guess we can easily look at the h1b rates and see they aren’t replacing Americans with low wages.
The site you linked very explicitly disagrees with you. Compare those h1b salaries with average salaries at the companies/positions they’re working for.
The h1b wages are very high across the different industries
Nobody has ever claimed they get paid minimum wage or something. Doesn’t change the fact that they are cheaper than non-h1b workers virtually 100% of the time.
I dont think it disagrees with me. The jobs being replaced were not able to be filled by local workers.
H1b workers are cheaper for a variety of reasons. Once local worker market is exhausted and employers search overseas the demand supply equation changes, the US has the highest paying jobs generally so what is a 15-30% before rate salary in the us is a high salary overses. There is the clause that these workers must be paid within the averages of their position and there are examples of companies breaking that. Thats an enforcement issue and not reflective of the program.
I don’t think Bernie can make the claim that h1b program steals American jobs without also making the claim that low skill immigrants steal American jobs and I dont think he’d make that claim. The h1b at least has conditions on finding local talent first.
I havent been able to find good stats to Compare h1b salaries vs the roles and I dont find glassdoor to be reliable. I’d guess that for dev work there is probably a ton of the core devs working locally on big salaries and the h1b workers are being brought on as temps for specific projects so their salaries are below the average for what that company pays for devs overall.
The jobs being replaced were not able to be filled by local workers.
[Citation needed]
I’d guess that for dev work there is probably a ton of the core devs working locally on big salaries and the h1b workers are being brought on as temps for specific projects
Well, I’m not sure what to tell you except that your guess is wrong. I work alongside h1bs every single day, and they absolutely aren’t temps. That is absolutely not restricted to my company.
The jobs being replaced were not able to be filled by local workers.
According to…? There is no requirement saying that the companies must attempt to place jobs locally beforehand.
Once local worker market is exhausted and employers search overseas the demand supply equation changes, the US has the highest paying jobs generally so what is a 15-30% before rate salary in the us is a high salary overses.
Yeah… But the most common occupation listed is for it/computer science which is a already a highly saturated labour market. There are plenty of highly educated and experienced locals to hire from, companies like amazon just don’t want to shell out the money they were spending when people were aggressively headhunting during the pandemic.
There is the clause that these workers must be paid within the averages of their position and there are examples of companies breaking that. Thats an enforcement issue and not reflective of the program.
But the DOL is responsible for enforcement and the program. How can it not be reflective of the program? This study goes into depth explaining how corporations take advantage of H1b to harm the labour market.
No, the rule is that it must match the “prevailing wage” which is the average amount of is the basic hourly rate paid on public works projects to a majority of workers engaged in a particular craft. Public work is usually significantly lower than private work.
"The two lowest permissible H-1B prevailing wage levels are significantly lower than the local median salaries surveyed for occupations. The two lowest H-1B wage levels set by DOL correspond to the 17th and 34th wage percentiles locally for an occupation. This translates into salaries that are significantly lower than local median salaries—17% to 34% lower on average for computer occupations (which are among the most common H-1B occupations). H-1B employers can reap significant savings by selecting one of the two lowest wage levels instead of the Level 3 wage (the median, or 50th-percentile, wage) or the Level 4 wage (above the median, at the 67th percentile).
h1b workers are being brought on as temps for specific projects so their salaries are below the average for what that company pays for devs overall.
Companies are hiring them from 3rd party outsourcing firms as a cheap labour pool, not as temps for specific projects.
“Outsourcing firms make heavy use of the H-1B program. Half of the top 30 H-1B employers use an outsourcing business model to provide staff for third-party clients, rather than employing H-1B workers directly to fill a special need at the company that applies for the visa.”
It tracks. There is nothing a multi-million dollar company won’t do to screw its workers so it can give their shareholders a bigger profit.
I think that’s really shitty title is what I think OP. Real engagement type garbage title.
Most “leftist” American politician says: Immigrants are taking your good-paying American jobs!!!
pretty sure it says clear as day “large corporations aren’t hiring you because immigrants are cheaper and they shouldnt be”
Bernie recognizes that immigrants are being exploited. Good on him for that. But it doesn’t make his post any less “immigrants are stealing your jobs” because he is still hinting that immigrants are lowering your wage.
Why do you think he didn’t say “we should get rid of restrictions on immigrant’s work so that they can get fair pay”?
Anyone with the ability to see that these systems are in place to further abuse the average worker and exploit emotions:
These systems have a history of and active effect of exploiting and abusing the average worker and immigrant.
The world (8 billion people) has more talent than when we keep it to the US (350 million people). We should want to import high level talent.
I don’t think that’s what Bush was thinking in 1990 when he split H1, nor what Truman was thinking when he made it.
In fact, with the current state of unemployment and skilled workers, the US needs as many educated/skilled people migrating as fast as possible, but I think it’s too late.
