The French president stated that at a UN conference in June, co-hosted by France and Saudi Arabia, several countries could finalize a joint move toward mutual recognition of a Palestinian state.
    • gaael@lemm.eeEnglish
      221·
      3 days ago

      Macron is a POS.

      This is only the start of his virtue signaling declarations with no intent to follow through to see if polls get good enough for him to re-trigger legislative elections.
      He fired the national representation and triggered legislatives elections in 2024, hoping to gain a better majority but ended up losing to the left.
      He wants to try again, but he had to wait 1 year (because constitution) and that wait period comes to an end… in June.

      Macron has learned a lesson from Trump: reality doesn’t matter. He’s been denying real, established facts and lying like no president before him for a few years now.
      Don’t mistake him for a good guy, he’s just doing a tiny bit better than actual fascists.

      Ps: it’s 2025, maybe we could stop using “having balls” as an expression of courage?

    • Mouette@jlai.luEnglish
      281·
      3 days ago

      Macron is not showing some balls, you dont have to be a super genius to see the wind shift. The only reason he ever took side against Palestine until then is because he do not want to hurt his US masters.

      Now that Trump is giving a big fuck you to the whole world and actively breaking his own economy it’s not really surprising to see him trying to distance with the atrocities he has covered and actively defended for US interest.

      • middlemanSI@lemmy.worldEnglish
        13·
        3 days ago

        It’s always strategy instead of values in politics, isn’t it? Makes me mad. In any case, I’m waiting on brutal genocide to end and hope for lady justice to “drain the swamp”. Not economic drain to his pocket like tRump, mind you.

  • devfuuu@lemmy.worldEnglish
    238·
    3 days ago

    Easy to do after killing everyone there. Better late than never I guess

  • moody@lemmings.worldEnglish
    12·
    3 days ago

    I also want to participate in a collective dynamic, which must also allow all those who defend Palestine to recognize Israel in turn, which many of them do not do," he added.

    • torrentialgrain@lemm.eeEnglish
      91·
      3 days ago

      Is that controversial on here? Seems to me like the only way to stop the fighting long term. There can’t be peace when Hamas doesn’t recognize Israel same as there can’t be peace when Israel doesn’t recognize Palestine.

      • brot@feddit.orgEnglish
        8·
        3 days ago

        It makes sense to recognize Palestine in order to calm the problem and give peace a chance. But I really do not see a how palestinian statehood will play out with a good ending and how they might find a way forward to peace and prosperity. They are being used as a pawn by arab states. Every palestinian state will have the problem of militant religious extremist fighting for power as we saw with Hamas vs. Fatah in Gaza. So the scenarios look like in neighboring states to me: A brutal dictatorship that crushes disstent with a vast secret police like Egypt. A weak and disfunctional state where powerful militias are building a state inside the state like in Lebanon. Or civil war like in Syria. Those scenarios also will play out when militant Palestinians have their way and push Israel to the sea and deport or kill every jew in Israel and go back to 1948 borders.

      • Saleh@feddit.orgEnglish
        84·
        3 days ago

        Hamas is the result of an unwillingness by Israel to grant any sort of stable and peaceful life and dignity to Palestinians. Hamas embodies the realization that armed resistance is the only mean left to Palestinians.

        Meanwhile demanding Palestinians to accept Israels genocide and ethnic cleansing as well as all the neighboring countries, as a prerequisite, is completely insane.

        You cannot force everyone to like you by committing genocide. And demanding people to normalize without holding the perpetrator accountable is completely psychotic.

        Imaging a court demanding the victims of domestic violence to first say they are friends with the husband that beat and raped them and welcome him back into the house as a part of the court proceedings, before the court talks about the rights of the victims to not be brutalized…

        • torrentialgrain@lemm.eeEnglish
          7·
          3 days ago

          The way you are arguing you will end up in an impossible situation every time. The sooner you realize this, the better. Because yes, the Israeli government and the IDF are currently committing a genocide on the Palestinian people but at the same time, Hamas exists (in their own words) to kill every Jew in the Middle East.

          Applying the “who started it” rhetoric is entirely useless because 1.) at this point it hardly matters anymore and 2.) it’s not as clear as you make it out to be, both in the modern history of the conflict but also going back to biblical times, which both sides are often evoking to legitimize their actions.

          The only way forward is a two state solution and I think most rational people realize that. However this can only happen if Palestinians overcome and reject Hamas and if Israelis overcome and reject the Netanyahu regime.

          And probably, if Americans overcome and reject their fascist leaders that are backing Israel to advance their own evangelical extremist beliefs.

          • Saleh@feddit.orgEnglish
            43·
            3 days ago

            Problem is that Israel is not held accountable. So if Palestinians “overcome” Hamas without Israel “overcoming” 80% of their political system, then Israel will just continue.

            If you want a two state solution you first need a level playing field to allow for negotiations to actually result in something constructive. We already saw with Oslo how the power imbalance let to Israel sabotaging the accords immediately and only having used the accords to weaken the position of Palestinians.

            What Macron and other Western leaders are calling for is just another Oslo with the continued obliteration of any sort of Palestinian state and people. We heard two decades of “two states solution” rhetoric without any actual willingness to hold Israel to their responsibilities. Macron just wants to go back to that. Otherwise he would not allow Netanyahu to use French airspace while the ICC arrest warrant is out for him.

            • torrentialgrain@lemm.eeEnglish
              2·
              3 days ago

              Well yes, absolutely, that’s why I said that Israelis need to overcome the Netanyahu regime as well and reform their state. I agree with you regarding the power imbalance.

        • brot@feddit.orgEnglish
          41·
          2 days ago

          I’m not sure if your analogies are correct - but if you want to compare this to a domestic situation, you have to admit that this is not one-sided domestic violence, but a toxic relationship where both sides are involved in really bad behavior. In those situation the only way out would be to separate those two spouses, end the relationship and let them recover and encourage them to go on their own ways without each others. That is kind of difficult when you’re neighbors.

          Doing some kind of international peacekeeping mission is the only way to keep both sides separated. Stop palestinian rocket attacks. Stop israeli retaliation strikes. But even an international mission will have big problems fighting against a deeply entrenched terror organization like Hamas. And we know how the UN peacekeeping in Lebanon doesn’t work, how UNRWA was infiltrated by terrorists and that all major powers who would be able to do something like that are currently unable to do so or really unwilling.

          • Saleh@feddit.orgEnglish
            63·
            2 days ago

            UNRWA being “infiltrated by terrorists” is a fabrication by Israel to destroy support for UNRWA and prevent Palestinians in Gaza from access to food, medicine, education…

            If it wasn’t for UNRWA Israel would have had to pay billions of dollars every year to uphold its obligation in provision for the civillian population under their occupation.

            Also speaking of Israeli “retaliatory” strikes is ignoring the day to day and unprovoked violence by Israel against people in Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Westbank way before October 7. For instance Israeli snipers boasted with how many women and children they shot during an attempt of peaceful protest by Palestinians in Gaza 2018-2019. In 2023 before October 7 Israel already killed more than 200 Palestinians. All of the violence, the ethnic cleansing, the abuse in Israeli torture camps, the slow starvation by blockade of Gaza… All of that was conveniently ignored by the same nations that now make demands towards Palestinians for a two state solution, without making demands towards Israel.

            With that it becomes clear that there is no interest by Macron to actually establish a two state solution. He just knows that supporting genocide is unpopular with his people and he needs to distract from his own domestic issues.

            As for the analogy to domestic abuse. It is a “forced marriage” which the Palestinians did not want and was enforced with violence from the very beginning. Claiming a “toxic relationship” to put blame on the victims of domestic abuse as a default is already a problem in the case of domestic abuse and it holds true in the analogy to Palestine.

            Anyone who would be serious about a two state solution would make the following demands towards Israel:

            • Immediate end of violence against civilians and in densely populated areas.
            • Full access for humanitarian aid, full financing of humanitarian aid by Israel.
            • Dismantling of all settlements outside the 1967 borders.
            • Full compliance with the ICJ and other international investigators and full access to all military and civilian records regarding the occupation.
            • Travel ban for all former and active duty IDF soldiers and settlers until criminal responsibility is cleared.
            • Handover of all suspected war criminals to the ICJ.
            • Withdrawal into the 1967 borders within a year.
            • Establishment of a government fund to compensate for all unlawful damages done to Palestinians and compensate all land stolen inside the 1967 borders.

            In turn the same compliance towards legal proceedings and courts have to come from the Palestinians. But i am certain they would be happy to comply, if Israel is actually held accountable for once. But as it stands accountability is only ever demanded from Palestinians for Israel then to continue their crimes with impunity.

            • brot@feddit.orgEnglish
              32·
              2 days ago

              And that is exactly what I mean with “toxic relationship”. You seem obsessed with Israeli crimes, but are totally ignoring every atrocity coming from the Palestinian and Arab side. This won’t solve this conflict at all. And demanding stuff that nobody could even accept on a road to peace (like your travel ban for all active and former IDF soldiers, which are due to mandatory military service for men and women all Israelis). Try to spread peace, don’t be a online keyboard warrior.

              • Saleh@feddit.orgEnglish
                2·
                2 days ago

                As i said, the ones who committed crimes on the Palestinian side should be subjected to the same court proceedings and i am confident that the Palestinians would comply with it, if these proceedings are looking at the crimes irrespective of the ethnicity, religion, citizenship or any other aspect of the suspect.

                The problem is that without preventing suspected criminals from escaping, they will escape. Especially as the majority of crimes in question would result in life long imprisonment if convicted.

                If we were not to establish justice by subjecting every suspected criminal to a court of law, the question is what could be done instead? A general amnesty? How would a lasting peace be possible if the same people that murdered, tortured, pillaged and raped just a few months ago would walk free and live next to their victims? If you want i can emphasize again that this goes for everyone on the perpetrator and victims side, irrespective of ethnicity, religion or citizenship. I also don’t think that it is in the interest of the Israelis or Palestinians that people from “their side” walk free and unpunished after having committed such atrocities. These people are a danger to everyone around them.

      • moody@lemmings.worldEnglish
        31·
        2 days ago

        I don’t know if it’s controversial, really. More so, I think most people are ok with Israel and Palestine both existing as states, and those who support Palestine don’t necessarily want Israel to cease to exist, they just want Israel to not try to blow up Palestine.

        I realize he said only “many of them do not” and I haven’t heard the statement in French so I can’t speak beyond that context, but the statement as is gives me the vibe that he’s suggesting something a little more than “some people.” Maybe it’s just the months of pro-Palestine protests getting repeatedly vilified by politicians and the media that’s causing me to read into this more than was put out there.

        In short, I’m just getting dirty vibes from the statement.